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First let me explain who the panel members are. Frank Salisbury is director of the plant

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science department at the State University of Utah. A noted biologist, he developed an

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early interest in the possibility of extraterrestrial life by working for his PhD at Caltech.

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I first encountered the name Frank Salisbury when I read a paper on the possibilities of

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life on Mars which appeared in Science Magazine in 1962. He was the author. I've been aware

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of Frank Salisbury for the past 15 years. During the mid 1960s a remarkable series of

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UFO sightings occurred in the Uinta, I guess the hope I'm pronouncing is right, Basin of

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Utah. Dr. Salisbury spent several years investigating the numerous sightings and authored the important

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study, the Utah UFO Displies which was published in 1974. Nearly all of you know Jim and Coral

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Lorenzen. They had the oldest UFO research group in the world, the aerial phenomena research

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organization, APRO, headquarters in Tucson, Arizona. They are two of the most respected

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figures in ufology. Their credentials were, have been read here before but Jim was a member

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of the Kippeak National Observatory in Tucson where he was senior technical associate. He

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designed computer interface for remote control telescope and instrumentation for rocket

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elevated astronomical experiments. Coral has been editor of the APRO magazine which many

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of you read. She has devoted her basic energies to the organization. Ted Bozier is a pioneering

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UFO researcher. He helped found civilian saucer intelligence in New York which is one of the

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first responsible UFO research groups in 1954. So he's been around quite a while too. He's been an

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active figure in ufology for the past 25 years and is author of the monumental report, the UFO

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wave of 1947. He's co-authored and edited a number of important works including U.S. Air Force

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Projects, Rudge and Blue Book reports 1951 to 1953. He currently works for the center of UFO

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studies and is compiling Humcat, the computer catalog of 1500 UFO occupant reports. I'm going to

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kick this off with a viewpoint which has been pretty much constantly editors of Fade magazine

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since it was founded 29 years ago. And maybe the most unpopular viewpoint here but I'm leading

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off first so that you or anyone else can take some potshots I think if you want later on. We

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have our open forum. On Fade magazine we have covered many of the well-known UFO contact

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events but we have always felt extremely uneasy and wary of them particularly those claims

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involving humans or human items. In most cases especially in the early days if the claim involved

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a purported human-like entity we did not report it at any length or we ignored it altogether. In view

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of the fact that Fade has become an historical record available on microfilm and in many libraries

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I rather regret this now but I do remain skeptical of all humanoid claims. I want to make clear that I

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am not critical of the reports of human oids per se but I feel they must be subjected to other

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interpretations than that human-like creatures visit us from somewhere else. Obviously I cannot

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advance convincing proof for a negative viewpoint therefore I have to fall back on what I admit

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might be termed common sense mixed with a bit of prejudice. My main argument is as follows. First

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that the very diversity of life on earth is so enormously complex that the chances of a

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superior population in any way resembling humans coming from somewhere else at this precise moment

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in time seems less likely than beating the slots at Las Vegas. I am not arguing against the extraterrestrial

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theory of UFOs although I believe that is only one of a number of arguable hypotheses but I am

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saying that if extraterrestrial life exists it cannot be humanoid. My second argument centers on

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the evolutionary development of life on earth which had to adapt to our planet's unique environment

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and history. Even given their infinity can one imagine exact parallels of environment, history,

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chance and time occurring on another planet. Can they? I don't think so. Thirdly I want to examine

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the evolution of our immune system which keep us alive but which in my view could not have

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developed similarly in any space visitor. Our greatest enemies on this earth are the billions

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upon billions of microscopic creatures and plants hell bent to destroy us and posing an even greater

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threat to unwary extraterrestrials. And fourth I want to discuss briefly that part of man's psyche

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which insists on seeing life elsewhere as merely another version of our own life on earth. It is

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part of our psychological outlook to imagine life elsewhere as not being too different from life

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here. First let's step outside ourselves and look at life here. Consider its diversity birds,

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fish, plants, octopi, tardigrades, bacteria, viruses if you can call viruses life, fungi,

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insects, coral, crustaceans, the whole mammalian kingdom from tiny shrews to the giant cetaceans

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to elephants to man himself. If we assume earth to be four billion years old and it may be twice

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that age, man has been around in recognizable form for less than one thousandth of that span of

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time and has been able to write for little more than one millionth of that total. A way to look at

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the problem of timing is dramatized by Carl Sagan in his book The Dragons of Eden, speculation on

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the evolution of human intelligence. Sagan says let's assume that the age of the earth is a single

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year beginning on January 1st then life began on earth about nine months later life began nine

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months later or almost ten months later around September 25th. The human species however in

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this imaginary year did not make its appearance until around 10 30 p.m. on December 31st only an

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hour and a half ago and recorded human history as existed only for the last 10 seconds of this

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imaginary cosmic year. The extraterrestrial humanoid hypothesis asks us to believe that in this tiny

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window of time a mere spark in the black of this is of all the time that has been our humanoid

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brothers from somewhere else have somehow found us and made contact. This would be a mighty coincidence

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indeed. Next I want to explore in somewhat more detail what we know of the origins of life on

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earth out of which has grown the fantastic diversity of our terrestrial life. In very simple

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terms as far as we are able to trace life on earth the earliest forms were blue green algae and

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bacteria. Once life began here it barely changed in its first two billion years. This has been

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termed the age of blue green algae. For the first two years to five six of life's history these

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are unity cells alone inhabit in the earth. The reason for this is that these primitive cells

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have white but they do not have nuclei. They reproduce by budding and fishing and that's

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about all. They did not change. They did not evolve. I don't want to go into the detail on this but

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apparently about 600 million years ago an unlikely accident happened. We still don't know how. Cells

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with the nuclei developed and this resulted in the creation of sex. It is the biological function

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of sex to promote variability by mixing the genes of two or more individuals. Sex cells have

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half the chromosomes of normal body cells and when two sex cells join they produce a new individual.

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The original amount of genetic material is restored. For two billion years as Stephen Jay

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Boole points out, algal mats remained algal mats but the cells with nuclei made sex a reality and

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less than a billion years later here we are people cockroaches, seahorses, petunias and crows. This is

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extremely unlikely it seems to me that an exactly similar development could have occurred anywhere

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else. One can assume that by statistical chance alone there must be life out there. After all we

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are looking at a billion billion of signs. That life is likely to be older or it's likely to be newer

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than life is here on earth. But my main point is that although the forms that life takes may be

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infinite the chances of evolution anywhere else duplicating the exact sequence which occurred

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here on earth are infinitesimal. It might be argued that once established life elsewhere would be

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bound to follow the same sequence that follows here. But again I want to quote Boole who says that

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quotes ontological records support no such interpretation. There has been no steady progress in

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the higher development of organic design. We have had instead vast stretches of little or no change

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and one evolutionary burst that created the entire system. That evolutionary burst is called the

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Cambrian explosion. And that fairly brief period after the development of cells with nuclei,

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earth life in nearly all of its basic forms evolved. That life filled our biosphere, air,

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land and water. The entire system of complex life on earth arose during about 10% of its

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history surrounding this Cambrian explosion of some 600 million years ago. Identical life were

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to develop here. We would have to assume on these other worlds an identical physical environment

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developing along an identical path on an identical time frame with that of earth. Footed in that,

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in the critical physical criteria which would have to be identical would be existence of a large

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moon for example. Existence of a similar sized sun with similar composition emitting similar

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rays at an equivalent distance. There would have to be similar atmospheric composition,

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similar amounts of water, similar gravity, similar magnetic fields which may depend on the dynamic

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influence of our moon and so on. Even when one looks at near infinity this is a great deal to

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expect. This leads to my third major argument that we are incredibly well adapted to earth's

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stable environment, to its gravity, to the high oxygen content of its atmosphere, to its water

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and water vapor, to its rather stable temperatures, radiations and other physical conditions which

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we seldom consider exceptional because we are so used to them. But let's assume that creatures

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from somewhere else were to appear on earth. Let's also assume that they developed in a

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physical environment identical with our own. They would then face the problem of our disease.

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H. G. Wells was not speculating highly when he pictures the Martian invaders of a hava,

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peaceful countryside, succumbing to an unknown disease. One is mindful of the following dog

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role that deliciously depicts our own situation. Perhaps you've heard it. Big fleas have little

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fleas upon their backs to bite them and little fleas have other fleas and so odd, infinite,

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cultural. There are more living creatures on every one of you than there are people on earth.

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There are millions of bacteria, fungi and viruses impacting each of you constantly with one

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simple and deadly purpose to kill you. You survive because of your complex immune system that has

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been in parallel evolutionary development with humankind for hundreds of millions of years.

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Immunologists confirm that man's greatest enemies are these countless billions of microscopic and

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submicroscopic creatures engaged in a constant effort to destroy us. Once the chemistry of

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life developed, the various species of cells went to war with each other. And over these hundreds

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of millions of years, the best fit is survived and attacked. And the ones that failed, their

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remains can be found sometimes in a few fossils. The concentrations of the various salts in our

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bloodstreams, for example, is the same as it was when our cells learned to live in the seas hundreds

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of millions of years ago. Could visitors from somewhere else have experienced this identical

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environment? It is said that a bacterium entering a cut in your finger can reach your brain in four

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seconds. In 24 hours, it can number billions. But over these same hundreds of millions of years

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that we have been developing, man has developed, for example, the white cells, the granular

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sites, which eat or poison these bodily invaders. There are the macrophages patrolling our bloodstreams

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and carrying on their war against these lethal invaders. As I stand here, I have 150 billion

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granular sites and macrophages available for combat. And I need them for these bacteria are always

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trying to kill me. As a second part of our defense system, we have the antibodies able to recognize

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anything foreign to couple with the antigens, neutralize poisons, kill the microbes. The third

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part of our great system is a group of proteins called compliments manufactured in our liver.

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These nine, the nine known compliment components can literally explode through a hostile bacterial

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cell wall. And finally, we have the lymphocytes, which travel through our blood vessels in the

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lymphatic system, or wander through the tissues themselves. Besides being killers of bacteria,

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they carry messages to alert the body factories to turn out more protective chemicals or proteins

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if they are needed to battle invaders. What are the chances of a space visitor when equipped to

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handle these multitudes of deadly bacteria waiting literally to eat him up? Hundreds of millions

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of years of evolution, hundreds of millions of deaths, millions of lethal experiments were

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necessary before man or any earth animal develop highly sophisticated and complex armament, which I

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have described here, and which is necessary to keep us alive. Seems unlikely to me that any space

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visitor exposed to this hostile environment could survive for 24 hours. We are enormously

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specialized in terms of evolutionary development. In terms of space, we live in a micro environment

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where the very smallest change in the gross scale of interstellar distances, space, time,

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and temperatures would destroy us. If this is true of us, is it wrong to believe it also would

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be true of visitors? And if it is not true of them, then we have to assume that they are not

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humanoid. As a final part of this discussion, I want to ask why we tend to regard visitors as

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humanoid. After I had selected this topic and written two drafts of the foregoing discussion,

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I was both heartened and dismayed to note that the lead paper in the June 10 issue of Science,

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Journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, covered much the same ground

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and arrived at much the same conclusion. Francois Jacob, professor of cell genetics at the Pasteur

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Institute in Paris, France wrote, when looking at present-day science fiction books, one is struck

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by the same phenomenon. The abominable animals that hunt the poor astronaut lost on a distant

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planet are products of recombinations between the organisms living on Earth. The creatures coming

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from outer space to explore the Earth are depicted in the likeness of man. You can watch them emerging

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from their unidentified flying objects. They are vertebrates, mammals without any doubt, walking

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erect. The only variation concerned body size and number of eyes. Generally, these creatures have

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larger skulls than humans to suggest bigger brains and sometimes learn to radio and tie

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on the head to suggest very sophisticated sense organs. The surprising point here again

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is what is considered possible. It is the idea, more than a hundred years after Darwin, that if

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life occurs anywhere, it is bound to produce animals not too different from terrestrial ones

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and above all to evolve something like man. Jacob believes that we humans create humanoids because

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we have to put order in the universe. We have to develop a unified and coherent view of the world

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and of the forces that run it. In my own view, even though we are surrounded by incredibly

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different life forms, we are simply unable to imagine anything much different from what we

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are familiar with. We combine bits and pieces, but all these bits and pieces are familiar.

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We simply cannot imagine things that are totally unfamiliar any more than we could have understood

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before the development of liquid-fueled rockets, that there could be such a creature on Earth

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as the bombardier beetle mixing spontaneously combustible fluids in an explosive chamber

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located in its abdomen. But the bombardier beetle doesn't exist. That's another story.

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At any rate, at the conclusion of a much more complex argument than I have entered to offer here,

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Francois Jacob says, the probability is practically zero that living systems, which might well exist

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elsewhere in the cosmos, would have evolved into something like human beings, even if life and

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outer space uses the same material as on Earth, even if the environment is not too different from ours,

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even if the nature of life and its chemistry strongly limits the way to fulfill certain

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functions, the sequence of historical opportunities there could not be the same as here. A different

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play has to be performed by different actors. Despite science fiction, Martians cannot look

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like us, and if they cannot, then obviously we have to take a fresh new look at a multitude of UFO

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claims. Dr. Frank Salisbury will be next time. Mr. Fuller has done an absolutely superb job of

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stating the establishment approach to this question, and I would like to respond to it a bit.

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I don't know exactly what approach to take because the one that I had written down here is pretty

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much what he said, a lot of it. I think it's important to note that there is a bit of an

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alternative that's been suggested in the scientific literature. Robert Beery published an article

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many years ago in which he talked about the adaptive nature of the human form. It makes sense,

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I suppose, to have the brain up off the ground, to have stereo vision, to have some kind of arms that

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you can manipulate, hands that you can manipulate with that you don't depend upon for walking.

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Many of the features of the human form, it can be argued, are adaptive and there's selective value

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for those features, and therefore it's conceivable that, given the kind of random evolutionary

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processes that have gone on, that the general features of the human form might be a result.

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That can be argued. It's an unpopular scientific idea in establishment biology,

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but it's an idea that can be presented. I think there are some even more unpopular ideas that

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need to be thought about. Before I get to them, though, I'd like to continue the biology lesson

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that we've had this morning. In the last 30 years, perhaps, we have discovered a fantastic amount

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of information about what life is, how it functions, the actual nature of life. Most of the evolutionary

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theories, incidentally, were formulated before that. Around the 1920s, early 1930s, the geneticists

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and the evolutionists finally got together by applying mathematics, namely population genetics,

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to modify Darwin's theory, introduce the concept of mutations, produce what's referred to as the

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modern synthetic theory of evolution, or the neo-Darwinian theory, which says that, as Darwin said,

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features that are well adapted tend to survive because of the overproduction of young, which

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leads to a struggle for existence and a survival of the fittest. That there's variety within organisms,

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and this variety can be selected so that the parts of that variety that best enable an organism to

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reproduce its kind will tend to survive and the other will be eliminated. This was Darwin's theory,

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but what was added to it was the concept that the variety comes from genetic recombination,

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which Darwin didn't know about, and mutations, which Darwin definitely didn't know about.

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That's kind of the modern synthetic theory, and it'd take a couple of hours to

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do it justice. I'm hoping that you have some concept already. Since then, we have learned

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of the fantastic complexity of living things. It's absolutely spectacular, and it saddens my

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heart that the public, in general, remains sort of unaware of these things, only aware at a level

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that doesn't really allow proper appreciation. We've had some artistic achievements, we've had some

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technological achievements, and these are appreciated a bit by the public, but we've had these

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fantastic insights into the nature of life, and the reason they're not appreciated is that they

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require some background. You've got to learn about atoms and molecules and such things.

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Not many people in the public are willing to make the effort, I guess.

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Basically, we have learned that the basic unit of a living organism is the cell.

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We've known that for 300 years. For the last 100 years about, we began to get some insight into the

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complex chemistry that was going on within those cells. During the last 30 years,

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I've finally really got close to it. We've understood the molecular structure of the enzymes.

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When I begin a biology class at Utah State University, where, incidentally, I'm not

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head of the Plant Science Department, I wish that I'd get, I keep forgetting to deny it,

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but it embarrasses me because I resigned as head of the department in 1970, a whole seven years ago,

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but it hangs on in some of these sources of biographical information. I'm a professor of

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plant physiology there and not head of the department. Boy, how to get sidetracked.

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Anyway, I start to teach a class and the students that come to the university have all had a course

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in high school biology, practically all of them, and so it's interesting to me to ask them,

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what's the most important thing in biology that you could learn? What's the nature of life?

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What is the really central concept of biology? And they never know because they don't teach

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them that in high school classes for some silly reason that I've been unable to figure out.

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Mostly, I think, because even high school biology teachers don't like to learn about molecules.

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The central fact is that the metabolism, the chemistry of cells is controlled by enzymes.

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Enzymes are protein molecules. No enzyme is known that's not a protein. Proteins are known

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that aren't enzymes like your hair and your fingernails and skin and so on, but no enzyme is

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known that is not a protein molecule. In the last 15 years, learned about the structure of these

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protein molecules that are enzymes, we know of the structures of a couple of dozen of them, perhaps.

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It's a tremendous effort to find this out, but we can understand that the protein molecule that's

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an enzyme is a machine, that it does the kinds of things that Curtis was talking about,

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produces compounds, etc. The main thing that it does is interact with the substrate by having

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the substrate sit down on its surface, and the exact structure of that surface matches the

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structure of the substrate so that the two fit like a lock and a key, key and a lock, and this

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allows the reaction to take place. The enzyme maybe bends a little, puts a little tension on

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part of the substrate molecule so that the substrate molecule breaks apart, or maybe it pushes two

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substrate molecules together in a way that they can react faster. The reactions are all

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thermodynamically possible, it turns out, but what the enzyme does is make them happen much faster,

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and that's the fundamental nature of life. Well, the complexity of these enzyme molecules is

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really something to comprehend. How can you account for the production of this complexity

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by the modern synthetic theory of evolution, I have been asking myself for the last several years.

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I want to tell you one little story, and it has two conclusions.

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Let's think of writing a sentence from Shakespeare. This is very comparable to putting together

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the amino acids in a chain to make an enzyme function. A sentence that I thought about and

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worked with was, this above all, to the known self be true. I think I can remember enough of the

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figures to tell you this story. It has about 45 characters, I believe, and in the alphabet that

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I used, I let there be 30 letters, namely the letters of the English alphabet plus a space between

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words plus some punctuation so that we can punctuate the sentence. How are you going to write this

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sentence by some kind of chance process? You can let monkeys pound away at typewriters,

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or you can blow up a print shop and look for the type in the street. The best way to do it, I suppose,

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is to let a computer rearrange letters in a sentence. A computer will rearrange letters in

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a sentence and compare the sentences that are produced with the sentence that we're going to write.

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I mentally build a little computer, one liter in volume, and I let it rearrange letters in the

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sentence a trillion times per second. I turned it on and I could see I wasn't getting anywhere.

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I wasn't going to be able to write the sentence very quickly that way, so I made enough computers of

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that size and volume to cover the whole earth to a depth of about 1.6 miles, two kilometers.

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I programmed each computer so that each one would write the sentence differently.

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I still wasn't getting there. So I covered all the planets in the universe with computers,

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about 10 to the 20th planets, one and 20 zeros worth of planets, two kilometers deep with my

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computers, no two computers writing the same sentence ever. I turned them on at time zero and

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I let them run for four and a half billion years, about the age of the earth, each one writing a

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trillion sentences per second. Well, I got the job done finally. Once somewhere in the universe,

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during that time, I wrote this above all to the known self be true. Could be done, you see.

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You can consider that a human cell contains 23 sets of chromosomes, that each chromosome

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has perhaps several thousand genes, and that each gene controls the production of one enzyme.

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Now, to make any one of those genes by a chance process, you're facing the odds that I just indicated

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in my little computer study. And if you want to know how many sentences with 40 letters,

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you can write all you have to do is multiply 30 by itself 40 times. I mean, for each letter,

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you can combine it with all the other letters. Each time you add a letter, you multiply by 30.

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So multiply 30 times 30 times 30, 40 times, and you begin to, well, you get the exact figure of

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how many sentences you can write with 40 letters in them using a 30-letter alphabet.

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And those are the kind of things that biologists know about a bit. They're the kind of things that

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Kurt was talking about. And they lead biologists like Lauren Eisley. I went back a ways. He wrote

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his book, The Immense Journey, in 1957, a beautiful, poetical book about biology. He's an anthropologist.

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He has a chapter in there entitled, Flying Saucers and Little Men, or something like that.

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And a conclusion is that life, even cellular life, may exist out yonder in the dark, but higher

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low in nature will not wear the shape of a man. Nowhere in all space on a thousand worlds will

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there be men to share our loneliness. George Gaylord Simpson wrote an article in Science in 1964 in

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which he used the same kind of an argument to arrive at the same conclusion. I think that

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there's no question that from the standpoint of establishment biology, there are no humans

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anywhere but on earth. Now, whether or not they might be humanoid in the sense that it makes some

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sense, there would be selective value in having your senses up off the ground, having stereo

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vision, having arms that you don't walk on with opposable fingers and thumbs that you can manipulate

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instruments when you build your spaceship, etc. That could maybe be argued, but it's inconceivable,

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absolutely, beyond any kind of establishment biological understanding of things to imagine

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that you could get humans with which you could reproduce, interact biologically in that way.

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That's the one side of the argument. I think there are some alternatives.

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To begin with, we wouldn't be surprised if beings on other worlds were made up of the same basic

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kinds of chemical molecules that we are, sugars, amino acids, nucleotides, fats, and so on.

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And the reason that we say that is that when we try to duplicate the primeval conditions on earth,

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as it's suspected they must have existed when we mix a reducing atmosphere of methane and

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hydrogen and ammonia and carbon dioxide and so on in a flask and introduce an energy source like

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electric sparks or ultraviolet light or just plain heat, growing little phosphate sometimes,

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what happens is that we do get the basic molecules upon which life as we know it is based. We get

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amino acids and protein, well, we get amino acids and nucleotides and sugars and fats and

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those kind of things. And we can even get the amino acids to hook together to make proteins.

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But there is where you run up against the statistical argument that I've been mentioning.

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To get the amino acids to hook together in the same arrangements that would produce the kind

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of life as we know it is absolutely fantastic. Very simple protein is insulin. It has, as I

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remember, 63 amino acids. That would be about the same complexity. There are 20 kinds of amino

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acids, so the alphabet is 20. That would be about the same complexity as writing this above all to

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the known self be true, maybe a little bit more complex. What all this has led me to think is that

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maybe the modern synthetic theory of evolution is not true. I think that we run up against some

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real problems. If we're going to account for mankind, as we see mankind at this time, if we're

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going to account for the, gee, I wish I had that list of things that Kurt mentioned, that's great,

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yeast and tigers and violets and all those kind of things. If we're going to account for all those

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different kinds of living things, I think we've got a real problem in terms of establishment

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biology. I think establishment biology is going to have to re-establish a little bit and to get

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some other ideas about how things work. In the meantime, there are a couple of alternatives.

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If it turns out that when we look at UFO accounts, when we see the occupant accounts that

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Ted Butcher talked about last night, when we look at the evidence of whether or not UFO occupants

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may be humanoid and it seems to be overwhelming that they are, then we're entitled to wonder about

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what's going on here. Titled to wonder whether the conclusions based upon establishment biology are

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really all that valid. A couple of possibilities. One is that God was in charge. It says in Genesis

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that man was created in God's image. That is that there was an intelligent creation,

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engineering of life as we know it. That's the religious alternative, I guess. I like that

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alternative, but for reasons that I can't argue in a scientific sense. Nonetheless, if that's one of

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the alternatives, then it's conceivable that man was created in God's image on other planets.

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That's the religious alternative. The science fiction type alternative is that life and man

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were placed here by intelligent beings from other worlds. I think you can maybe see that

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that's a closely analogous argument to the argument that God was in charge. It becomes a

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matter of the definition of who's God and so on. I find that troubling and worthy of a great

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deal of thought. But anyhow, it's conceivable that we're not all unrelated, that we didn't

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evolve independently. I think it's absolutely clear that if the vilous boss and other such

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instances have any validity, if there's the conceivable possibility that man could mate with

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being from another world, then we didn't evolve independently. Establishment biology,

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assuming independent evolution absolutely eliminates that possibility. There's no way to

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consider it. The only way that you can have UFO occupants, not only humanoid but also human,

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is to say that we had some kind of common origin, either in the mind of God or on some other planet

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seated then throughout the universe, etc. That's the main thing that I would want to say.

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Kurt mentioned the problem of contamination, bacteria. I think there's probably another

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side to that problem too. The other side is that we don't yet really understand the interaction

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between a host and its parasite. We don't really understand at this time what disease really is.

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I was chairman of a committee to consider exobiology and what they ought to do with the

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lunar receiving laboratory after the moon program was over. The lunar receiving laboratory was built

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at the cost of about 18 million bucks, as I remember, at Houston in Texas. Just in case,

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there might be organisms on the moon, nobody believed that there were. Science had no reason

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to expect organisms on the moon, but the possibilities seemed so frightening that they

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spent 18 million dollars to build this laboratory where the astronauts were brought after they got

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back from the moon, spent two or three weeks in isolation, you'll remember, so that if something

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began to develop in them, we wouldn't turn it loose on the earth at large. Actually, it could have

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got loose several times when the thing landed in all. It was very scary as we looked back at all this.

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There weren't any organisms on the moon that was just as everybody expected,

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but it made us think about this possibility of contamination, disease organisms from another

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world, or our disease organisms contaminating another world. And I guess the conclusion that I

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arrived at after listening to many expert witnesses testify is that we don't know the answer to that

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one either. Not only is there a very intricate defense mechanism against individual organisms

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on earth, but apparently organisms that infect other organisms have something very specific

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about them too. In plant pathology, the really amazing thing is that a given plant pathogen

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only infects a very small number of hosts. There are about 300,000 different species of flowering

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plants. Any given fungus that's a plant pathogen infects at most a half a dozen of those. Why

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doesn't it infect all the rest? Either because all the rest have some kind of defense or because the

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the disease organism does not have the ability to, it's not specifically matched to any host.

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And if the second possibility is right, then the chances are good that a totally alien organism

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would not be infected at all. I mean, it's an opposite kind of a conclusion to the

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H.G. Wells War of the World's conclusion. And until we learn more about disease, we can't say for

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positive. Either possibility seems to be likely at this time. Well, okay, biology maybe has something

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to contribute to all this. I think that as far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to toy with the questions of

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did God create man in his image on other planets? If so, what does it mean to all of us here?

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Are they allowed to visit us? Are the visitations really something else than what we think they are?

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Are they part of the the display that's being put on to mislead us, perhaps, or what?

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Many, many things and I better sit down. Thanks.

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My statement has to be very short and brief by necessity because I'm completely unqualified

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to discuss the theoretical possibilities that are inherent in the discussion. I have no background

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that permits me to speak with any kind of authority on it. I can make the point that what

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essentially we're dealing with here or what I'm dealing with is a clutch of cases, 1500

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approximately, in which we have reports stating that creatures coming from UFOs by and large

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are reported overwhelmingly to be humanoid in appearance. And my concern has to be limited

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to trying to account for that. And the theoretical discussion is beyond my own kin.

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If it can be applied in terms of the actual data that we have on hand, perhaps I might be able to

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contribute something of some sort of value to that. I don't know if intelligent creatures in outer space

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can or cannot be humanoid. I personally don't know if this is really the issue at hand.

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As far as I'm concerned, the issue at hand is how do we account for humanoid reports

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in our own files? I think that this points out a very important factor of this whole UFO humanoid

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problem. And it's the problem of dealing with belief systems. We seem to be keyed locked in

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in a way to the idea that the source for UFO reports must be extraterrestrial. I was for a long time,

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but I saw the light somewhere. I don't know that this is, it's not inoperative by any means,

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or I don't feel that at this point it's an operative as a hypothesis. But it has been made

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increasingly clear to me over the past couple years that there there must be alternatives,

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because I think the theoretical arguments raised by Mr. Fuller are legitimate. And I don't know how

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to account for them. I can't because I'm not qualified. But we are faced with a clutch of cases

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where the predominant description is of a humanoid entity. But I don't think that we should

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lock ourselves into the belief system that it must be representative of an extraterrestrial

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hypothesis, which is not to say that it is not. However, there are other possibilities. The reason

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that we may be getting so many humanoid entities is kind of external imposition of an anthropomorphic

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interpretation of what something should look like or what we would prefer it to look like if

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the scenario that's taking place is to be interpreted in its roughly reported terms

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is much easier to conceive of a bizarre, strange experience in terms of what we're familiar with.

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I think this suggests very strongly the problem that we're faced is not are they extraterrestrial,

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but is what is going on here simulated by something external going on? Or is there a possibility that

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some mechanism is at work interiorly in the human consciousness that is creating these

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manifestations? And are they merely an externalization of some psychological or sociological

395
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:26,280
mechanism about which we know very little at this point? That's as much as I can say on it.

396
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:39,400
For all the friends that will comment on this. Yeah, I'm going to just think disadvantage

397
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:46,760
because I'm a maverick. When I started looking at UFO reports, I looked at the reports and let them

398
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:53,160
teach me. I always thought that there would be some real monsters if they if occupants did

399
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,680
manifest themselves. And when the humanoids came along, I couldn't believe. I just couldn't believe.

400
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,680
I still don't know if I believe, but I still say people are seeing them they exist.

401
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,360
Jim, do you want to talk from this or do you want to talk from up here? I'll have to

402
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,080
cop sort of the same plea that Ted did and say that I'm not qualified to enter into

403
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:27,960
a biological argument, turning biological theory. In trying to assess my own qualifications, I

404
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:37,880
find that I have some technical background. But in approaching this subject under discussion,

405
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:46,040
I'm approaching it entirely as a layman and as an empiricist. And I guess I look at myself in a way

406
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:55,080
as a sort of an obscure philosopher known mainly for my obscurity. My approach to this, I say, is

407
00:49:55,080 --> 00:50:05,160
and as an empiricist. And I find the arguments against humanoids very persuasive. However,

408
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:11,160
arguments and statistics can be misleading sometimes. And I'll just give an example. I live

409
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:18,840
in Tucson, Arizona. And suppose that someone would come to me now and say that they have reason to

410
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:26,680
believe that my house has just been burglarized. If that idea doesn't appeal to me, I can resort to

411
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:31,480
a lot of statistics. And I can convince myself that it hasn't been burglarized because I can take

412
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:39,960
the number of houses and the frequency with which burglaries occur in Tucson and the diligence

413
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,560
of the police and patrolling and various things of that sort. And I can show that the chances are

414
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:51,640
so remote that I need to concern myself about it. But I would say that really the best way to check

415
00:50:51,640 --> 00:51:00,440
on that is to go home and look. That's the approach of an empiricist. That's the approach that I've

416
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:11,320
taken in dealing with UFO occupant reports. Here we have an opportunity to investigate a phenomenon

417
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:18,520
and decide on the basis of evidence as best we can, whether or not it's really occurring. And I'm

418
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:25,080
not going to say that it's clear. But just one more reference theorizing, it's a time honored way of

419
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:32,200
avoiding a problem that you don't want. But I doubt that that theorizing would be very satisfactory

420
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:40,840
to Travis Walton, for example. So I think that my contribution to this discussion today will be

421
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:48,520
to discuss two cases that I've investigated personally that support each other in quite a

422
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:57,240
remarkable way. First case I'll discuss involves Sergeant Charles Moody, who is the tech sergeant

423
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:04,600
in the Air Force. He was stationed at Holloman Air Force Base at Elm agoradano, Mexico. And

424
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:13,560
in 1975, the month of August, I believe it was August 13th, he working swing shift at the base

425
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:20,600
was not tired on returning home one evening. And he had heard that day about meteor showers that were

426
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,120
supposed to occur. So he thought he'd go out to the edge of town and watch for meteors.

427
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:31,400
He went out and parked in an area that's quite isolated from the city, even though it's nearby.

428
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:39,400
It's isolated by some ridges and desert growth. He sat on the fender of his automobile for a while,

429
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:46,200
smoked a cigarette and watched and he saw a few meteors. Then abruptly he saw a disc drop out of

430
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:53,480
the sky. And he's describing this to me, he said, it wobbled a little like an uncaged gyro. And then

431
00:52:53,480 --> 00:53:00,200
it caged, he says. And then it made a humming sound and moved slowly toward me. Now Moody was a

432
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:06,360
fellow who never believed this sort of thing could happen. In fact, he told me that he had been on

433
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:15,000
several inquiry boards investigating UFO incidents in the Air Force and he'd helped railroad a few

434
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:21,080
people into some severe statements of charges that had lost pilots that had lost aircraft in UFO

435
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:26,440
encounters. And he said that the coaching and the training he'd received just didn't prepare him to

436
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,720
accept the reality of this sort of thing. So he was quite surprised. That's putting it mildly. He

437
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:37,160
jumped off the fender of his car and jumped into it and tried to start it and it wouldn't start.

438
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,320
The dome light didn't even come on, electrical system seemed to be dead. Then his next memory

439
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:51,560
was to see the UFO flying away. The disc was moving off, elevating into the sky and disappearing.

440
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:57,720
And he was feeling very numb like his whole body was asleep. He went to, he started his car then,

441
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:03,880
it started easily. He went home checking his watch on the way he realized he'd lost an hour and a half.

442
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:11,560
Came into his house. His wife was looking at him quite strangely. She told me at the time that

443
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:17,240
she wanted where he'd been naturally and he came in looking quite pale and said,

444
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:20,920
you'll never believe what happened to me. And she said, well, you'd better try me.

445
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:32,840
But in the course of time following this incident, Sergeant Moody got in touch with

446
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:39,720
APRO privately. He did not want to make a public report. Felt that it would have severe

447
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:48,200
effects on his future as an Air Force career man. So we investigated the case quietly,

448
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:54,600
put him in touch with Dr. Harder by telephone and made some tentative arrangements for some

449
00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:01,800
regressive hypnosis. In the meantime, Moody got in touch with an acquaintance of him,

450
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:09,160
of his that he'd known for quite a few years, a retired flight surgeon retired from the Air Force.

451
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,040
And this man told him how to practice this over telephone, how to practice the sort of

452
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,960
of self hypnosis meditation that might help restore his memory for the lost time.

453
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:26,200
There are quite a few details to this case. Moody had an injured back when he came out of this

454
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:33,560
incident. And after a couple of days, he broke out in a rash all over his body, covered from

455
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:40,600
roughly middle chest area to his knees. He went on sick call and was sent to

456
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:48,280
referred to William Bowman Army Hospital, where they treated him for a dose of radiation.

457
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,040
They gave him the standard treatment and it caused a little excitement because no one could figure

458
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:58,120
out where he got this radiation, since he did not tell him of the experience. The only conclusion

459
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:03,080
they could come to that there was radioactive material stored near the service line and it

460
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:08,760
was used in conjunction with magnetron grids that were charged with this radioactive material.

461
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:15,400
There was supporting physical evidence for his story. It wasn't simply something that could have

462
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,520
dreamed up entirely. After receiving the standard treatment for a dose of radiation and he was

463
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:27,400
returned to duty, he began to call me periodically. I would call him. But one thing that I advised

464
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:32,600
him against was using the phone at the air base, but he did use more than effect as the military

465
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:41,160
watts line from the operations during the evening. And very shortly, there was sort of a prophecy

466
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:47,160
that I had made that became fulfilled. When I first talked to Moody, he said,

467
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,320
what do you suppose would happen if I report it to my superiors on this? And I said,

468
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,360
the first thing I think would happen is you'd receive shipping orders. So one evening, Moody

469
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:01,720
called me and said, guess what? I'm being shipped. So I feel that probably the phone is monitored

470
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:06,200
because he certainly wasn't due for overseas rotation. Should have had a couple of years

471
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:13,080
by normal procedures at that base. Circumvented our plans to have him regressed hypnotically.

472
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:18,920
The only way I got to interview him personally is the National Inquirer eventually flew me to

473
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,880
where he was located and the story came out through the inquirer because of the help we had in this

474
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:30,440
way. We were able to subject his testimony to psychological stress evaluation, which supported

475
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:37,800
the truthfulness of his account. He remembered occupants, which he described as follows, that

476
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:44,280
they weighed in the neighborhood of 100 pounds, he would guess that they were under five feet tall,

477
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:52,760
that they had large domed heads, no hair, not even eyebrows, that they had five digit hands,

478
00:57:52,760 --> 00:58:01,000
but they had no fingernails, that they wore uniforms, which were like coveralls that ended

479
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:07,240
at the wrist and at the, without a cuff, just simply terminated. And at the end of the throat,

480
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:14,360
the same way that they had, that they were very slender and billed with apparently very little

481
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:22,280
chest capacity. Their mouths were essentially just a slit, that the nose was very, very small,

482
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:29,320
that the ears were very small, that the eyes were friendly located like humans, but were very large.

483
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,800
He reported also that the interior of the vehicle was dimly lit. He had trouble seeing

484
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:43,240
and he reported that it was quite warm. Before I got these details from Moody, which he wrote,

485
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:49,320
he wrote these details in a letter after he had recalled. But before I received these details from

486
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:55,080
him, I was, I had made a trip to Phoenix, Arizona, to investigate the Travis Walton case.

487
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:01,480
But I just want to go through where I feel that the Walton's case supports Moody's and vice versa.

488
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:08,680
I think the most you're familiar with the case, but briefly, Walton was with a crew of wood cutters,

489
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:15,960
there were seven total, leaving the woods at sunset. They saw a disc shaped object estimated

490
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:22,520
variously from 15 to 20 feet above the terrain, hovering in a clearing. Walton, deciding that

491
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,120
this was the best chance he'd ever had to get a good look at one of these things, jumped out of

492
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:31,960
the vehicle and ran up close to it. The other people reported that they saw him struck by a ray,

493
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:39,320
beam of some kind from the vehicle. He fell over, they panicked and left the scene. After

494
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,720
recovering a little from their fright and thinking what they'd done, they looked, the vehicle looked

495
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:50,040
back, saw a light at something, elevate from the area and move off. And they must have decreased

496
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:55,240
the return and looked for Travis, but he was not there. Considerable search was conducted over

497
00:59:55,240 --> 01:00:01,880
the next few days, involving around 50 people on foot, some on horseback, helicopters and so on.

498
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:09,240
Travis was not found. However, according to his account, he found himself on the roadway near

499
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:17,240
Heber, Arizona, around five days and six hours later. He went to a phone booth, called his brother

500
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:25,560
in law, became Gahim. He was taken by his brother to Phoenix. And I talked to him a couple of days

501
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:34,200
later. Jim Harger joined us for that investigation. On the Saturday after Travis's return, he was

502
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:40,600
addressed hypnotically and he described the occupants that he'd seen. And every detail that I've

503
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:47,560
given about Moody's occupants was described by Walton, although Moody's case had never been

504
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:53,640
published. And of course, Walton's hadn't occurred. So neither one could have known of the other one's

505
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:59,880
case. Now, this is the sort of evidence that leads me to think we are dealing with real humanoids.

506
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:07,320
I'd like to make a comment. Although neither man pointed this out, the type of humanoid they

507
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:15,240
describe is what you would expect to evolve in an environment where the atmosphere was somewhat dense

508
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:22,040
and you would not require large nostrils to breathe. You would not require a large chest capacity.

509
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:28,200
You would not require large ears to hear. But if your light level was quite low, you would

510
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:35,320
require a large eyes to see. If the atmosphere was damp and warm as the atmosphere was in these

511
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:41,320
vehicles, you might have one more item. They each described a very dry white skin.

512
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:47,080
Where it was, I think Moody described the skin as having the appearance of a white mushroom.

513
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:55,640
And Walton mentioned something like marshmallows. These are the two cases. And this is the way

514
01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:03,000
they support each other. I find myself hard pressed to account for them in any way except that

515
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:08,520
they're being real occurrences that corroborate each other. Thank you.

516
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:23,480
Thank you, Jim. We will entertain questions from the audience. Yes, sir. Q. The question is

517
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:32,280
whether a two-legged, two-armed, one-head, with stereo vision creature that gets out of a spaceship

518
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:38,840
is to be called a humanoid or a biped. We're obviously talking about semantic things. To me,

519
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:45,960
the term humanoid meant exactly what you said, that it's chemically, genetically, and in all the

520
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:51,720
ways that we would think of relationship. They were not alike, but same general form

521
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:59,400
appeared. The term human would imply that they're alike. And I think that the term humanoid was

522
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:05,960
invented to show that they would be like the blackbird, but otherwise not alike.

523
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:13,640
When you mention it, there are many cases of so-called parallel evolution known in the

524
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:21,080
plant and animal kingdoms. I'm a botanist, and so I immediately think of the cacti of America

525
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:28,920
and the euphorbase of Africa, which have totally different kinds of flowers, and according to any

526
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:34,920
scheme of classification would not be related, but which have the very same form. They have the

527
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:41,080
same succulent with needles, et cetera, kind of a form. And that's the kind of an argument that

528
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:47,880
people put forth to indicate that there could be humanoids, not humans, but humanoids on other

529
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:54,200
planets that would not be related to us any more than a, well, much, much less than a cactus is

530
01:03:54,200 --> 01:04:00,520
related to a euphorb, but that might nevertheless have the same appearance. Now, I get hung up on

531
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:05,960
a lot of these things. I guess that when you find yourself in UFO investigation, you find yourself in

532
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:12,680
a situation to doubt all kinds of things. And probably for that reason, or maybe because of my

533
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:18,360
basic personality that makes me doubt all kinds of things, I find myself in UFO investigation and

534
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:27,000
also questioning establishment biology in terms of the basic theory of evolution. And I see some

535
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:35,640
real problems, and the problems are exactly those problems of parallel evolution. You're up against

536
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:42,840
the statistics that I tried to indicate in writing Shakespeare by chance. If you want to get

537
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:50,600
things that are alike, and yet we see things alike in nature, and perhaps if the humanoids are as

538
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:57,080
the Lorenzans and Ted Blertcher say, if the humanoids are really the fact of the matter,

539
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:04,280
then we see these parallelisms, and the question is, where do they come from? I don't think establishment

540
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:10,360
biology can account for such things. And consequently, there may be other possibilities,

541
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:18,440
intelligent creation or relationships among the stars, passage between the stars for a long,

542
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:25,000
long, long time, so that we're not only apparently the same features, but that we are indeed related.

543
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:31,240
That's, I think, a possibility worth considering. The answer, boy, I don't know it. I wouldn't

544
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:37,320
stand up here and say, I believe such and such, because I just don't have any idea of how the

545
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,720
answer is going to turn out. But I think those are the problems. I think I understand the problems

546
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:53,080
a little better than I used to, and that's about as far as we are. The question is, how do I recognize

547
01:05:53,160 --> 01:06:02,120
the obvious, the apparent technology of UFOs with my own position on the humanoid hypothesis? I don't

548
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:09,480
deny that there are UFOs. I think every member of this panel believes, you know, but we don't know

549
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:16,600
what UFOs are. If we assume they are machines, obviously, they are very high technology.

550
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,720
The only point that I am making, really, is that if they are extraterrestrial,

551
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:30,280
and if they are intelligently wrong and there are beings inside them, the chances of evolution

552
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,720
are that they would not be humanoid. That's really the only point I'm making.

553
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:41,720
Well, I don't think that's correct. They put a little moon dust in the culture media for several

554
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:47,400
different kinds of plants. A guy with the name of Wackenshaw was in charge of it at this lunar

555
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,960
receiving lab. That's one of the things they were trying to do to justify its continued existence.

556
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:59,400
And some things grew lots better than the controls without the moon dust. And that was a bit exciting.

557
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:05,320
I don't think there's necessarily anything mysterious about it. Plants and animals need

558
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:11,160
trace elements, and apparently the moon dust has the right ones for certain species. I don't remember

559
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:16,520
any results, although it's been lots of years, of the type that you mentioned, where they wouldn't

560
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:24,040
grow. What I remember is that a couple of ferns and mosses grew a lot better. Well, I don't think I

561
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:28,920
want to get into the sons of God and the daughters of men. I think that's an obscure passage. I've

562
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:34,600
thought about it a lot too, though. I'll say that much. I don't know about many radiation cases.

563
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:41,720
These are the experts. Dad, Jim, are there many radiation cases that you know of? I only know

564
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:46,920
that one in Canada. And you mentioned Sargent Modya, maybe. There are not very many radiation cases,

565
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:55,480
but the symptoms seem to be quite clear. The effects of the electromagnetic energy are quite

566
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:03,880
different from the effects of radiation residuals. And it's not likely they could be confused.

567
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:12,520
That's about all I can say. Well, but electromagnetic energy is radiation in the sense that there's a

568
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:19,880
big old spectrum. And if you think of the particle way of looking at radiation, the photons,

569
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:26,520
they start from way out in the radio end where the photons are extremely weak. And as you get

570
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:31,720
shorter and shorter wavelengths, the photons become increasingly powerful. When you get to

571
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:37,160
about the ultraviolet, the photons are powerful enough to begin to cause chemical changes in

572
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:42,360
things that absorb them. When you get to the x-rays and the cosmic rays, they're even much more

573
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:48,280
powerful. The kind of radiation given off by radioactive materials is usually that very

574
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:54,600
powerful kind that causes lots of damage. Kinds of damage that are produced would be recognizable

575
01:08:54,600 --> 01:09:00,120
for a given part of the spectrum. That's what you were saying. Yeah. Ultraviolet produces

576
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:06,680
something similar to sunburn and so on. Yeah. We have time for one or two more questions. Yes,

577
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:12,840
okay. The question is in the two cases I discussed, how did the

578
01:09:13,480 --> 01:09:18,520
precipitates or the victims, what do you want to call them? How did they feel about the aliens?

579
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:26,120
Is that it? Essentially, Moody, well, to begin with, he felt like he was, he was lethargic and he

580
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:30,120
couldn't move very well and he claimed the communication too, by the way, that they could,

581
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,040
one of them could communicate with him in a way that he could not understand,

582
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:43,640
but which suggests telepathy. He felt sort of an admiration and mixed with fear for them,

583
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:51,880
was quite impressed with their technology and that sort of thing. And one of his remarks that he

584
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:57,960
made to me was he couldn't, he couldn't understand why they picked him up and he imposed this as a

585
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:07,160
question and which they did not answer, but I'm digressing a little. Walton was simply unnerved

586
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:12,200
by the whole experience and reacted violently as soon as he became conscious and saw that he was

587
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:19,480
surrounded by aliens. He described as defensive moves. He found himself on a table

588
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:27,160
three aliens, two standing on his right and one on his left, the kind I've described. He jumped off

589
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:35,320
the table and looked up, what looked like a large glass test tube off a sort of an instrument table

590
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:40,040
across the end of the room and tried to break it across the edge of the table to make a sharp

591
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:48,440
instrument to defend himself. And the aliens simply avoided him and left the room, but his reaction

592
01:10:48,440 --> 01:10:55,160
was fearful because, well partly because when he slowly regained consciousness he felt that he was

593
01:10:55,160 --> 01:11:00,920
in a, they probably have been injured. He could remember just approaching the vehicle and then

594
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:07,400
having some feeling, some kind of electric shock. And when his next conscious moment, he's on this

595
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,840
table and he thought he was in a hospital, that he'd been injured and he was in a hospital,

596
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:17,720
regular, Earth-type hospital. So on opening his eyes and seeing these aliens, you could be expected

597
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:23,880
to be surprised and violent. Now there were his experience and his experience he encountered

598
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:29,800
and countered other aliens, well I think they're aliens, they appeared to him to be human and

599
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:36,600
he looked to them for help to get him out of the situation because they looked human. But there

600
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:40,920
were some things about him that suggest they might not be human. They resembled each other

601
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:47,080
so much, there were four of them, they resembled each other so much that some people suggested

602
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:52,280
there were clones, I don't go that far. I asked Travis specifically if they had differences,

603
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:56,840
like see a difference in hairline and he thought they had minor differences. But I think that's

604
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:03,000
interesting psychologically, he reacted with fear and violence to the strange Supreme Ones and he

605
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:08,360
looked to the, those that appeared human for help. We have time for one more question. Yes.

606
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:15,720
I'm not aware of any reports from Black Africa, there are several from South Africa that describe

607
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:23,400
Caucasian type humanoid's light skinned. One of these is a contact case of which I suspect is

608
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:31,080
probably rather dubious, I don't know for certain. There are a few cases of humanoid types with

609
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:38,360
non-Caucasian type skin and it varies from red-orange to brown. Some are described as black,

610
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:43,880
but it's not certain whether this is a tight helmet or hood-like affair over the over the face

611
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:50,600
through which the features are seen or whether this is actual skin color. There are variants in

612
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:58,680
the color by and large their Caucasian, the large number of them which suggests some very

613
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:06,440
subjective interpretations to me. The majority of the reports come from Caucasians, but as far as

614
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:13,560
I know there are no actual Negroid type humanoid's that I am aware of. There are a few green colored

615
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:24,360
there are a few red-orange, quite a few tend deeply tend types from oddly enough South America or

616
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:31,320
maybe not oddly enough I don't know, but they the tend the tend versions turn up in in Nordic

617
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:39,480
areas too so it's really hard to make a generalization. One more question whether anyone

618
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:48,280
in this panel has considered the possibility that they may somehow be related to L's or

619
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:54,440
leprechauns or something like that. Does anyone here care to speak to it? As I mentioned briefly

620
01:13:54,440 --> 01:14:01,080
yesterday there were three reports from 1976 of humanoid entities. Two of them from Dunn,

621
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:06,440
North Carolina that were that were investigated quite thoroughly by the local newspaper editor

622
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:13,720
who reported on the incident in Pursuit Magazine I believe the most recent issue which is put out

623
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:24,040
by Ivan Sanderson's group Situ and these entities in Dunn, North Carolina were extremely reminiscent

624
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:33,880
of the earth folk type of creature. They were under a foot tall and they had the qualities of

625
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:45,560
fairies rather than than space travelers. This meeting of knowledge earned thank you.